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Subject: Empty Arms: When Life Doesn't Seem Fair
Date: August 13, 2001
Related Article.It Never Occurred to Me I Might Lose My Baby
The aching of empty arms from infertility, miscarriages or stillbirths seems entirely unfair. It is hard to understand why a couple cannot get pregnant or why a child dies prematurely. Please join us as Marlo Schalesky, author of EMPTY WOMB, ACHING HEART assists our discussion.
1. What causes life to hurt?
2. Emotional pain is harmful, how does one move beyond that?
3. What are some keys to healing inner hurts?
4. Where does one find comfort when life doesn't seem fair?
5. How can we nourish our souls when we are filled with despair?
6. What can draw us back to contentment in life?
Faith Hello there
cwt people are having trouble getting in here tonight
cwt is that your first try?
Faith Oh dear, that does seem to be a problem sometimes.
Faith No, I managed to get in the first time.
cwt there has been two so far, one being our guest author!
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cwt hi there author
cwt trouble staying in tonight? there have been some probolems
Faith Hello author
author Hi! I got booted, but I'm hopefully back now. Am I coming through okay?
cwt if anyone gets bumped out just try again,maybe try again under a different name
Faith Yes, I am seeing everything fine.
author Good!
cwt great to have you here
author Thank you.
cwt we will just wait a few minutes or any others who will be joining us
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cwt hi Grace,
cwt welcome to our session tonight
Faith Hello Grace
cwt is this your first time?
author Hi Grace! Thanks for joining us.
Faith Are you new to the chat session Grace?
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Faith It looks like Grace must have been bumped off.
cwt oh dear, another problem, let's beginin prayer and ask the Lord to intervene with this proble,
cwt sorry problem
cwt Lord we thank you for this time here tonight online with our guest author and with other women, we ask the your Holy Spirit will be our guide and will protect this site. Lord please help the women to be able to get into this chatroom and remain in so that they can be encouraged by your words here tonight, amen
Faith Amen
author AMEN!!
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cwt well let's begin with our first question even though we are a small group
cwt welcome karing
Karing Hi there
Faith Hi there Karing!
author Hi karing. Thanks for joining us!
Faith Did you have trouble getting in?
Karing No
cwt thank you for joining us Marlo, our guest author tonight
Faith Some people have been bumped off.
author I'm happy to be here. Thanks for inviting me.
cwt Marlo you have shared your experience in a book that you are writing on
cwt Empty Womb, Aching Heart
cwt let's begin by having you share a little of your life experience and what led you to write the book
author Yes, Empty Womb, Aching Heart shares some of my journey through infertility. As I've struggled with infertility, I found plenty of information on medical treatments, etc., but nothing to help with the everyday emotional and spiritual trials and questions.
Karing Has it been helpful helping others with this struggle?
cwt so you were led to write the book yourself! That is a tremendous ministry
author Yes. And others have helped me. I didn't want to write the book at first - too painful.
Karing How long ago did you write the book?
author But God showed me that I needed to write the stories that helped me - the wisdom and insights of others who have traveled the road of infertility and infant loss and found hope and a deeper relationship with God in the midst of it.
author I wrote the book last year, and it was released in May 2001.
Faith Is the book available in most bookstores?
Karing Is there one thing that you can attribute to your healing?
author It should be. Also on amazon and christianbook.com
Faith Thank you
author Time!! And I'm still healing. So often we think we can do an end-run around the hard stuff, but we really have to just go through it, see it through.
Karing What about the ethics of fertility intervention. Where does one draw the line before they are beginning to play God?
author In my opinion, I think we can take advantage of the wisdom God has granted to medical doctors, up to the point where we begin to harm another person, including unborn babies.
Karing I agree with that ....
Karing The process of assistance suddenly reaches a point where a line has been crossed .... but it is hard to know where that is.
cwt well we are so glad to have your expertise here tonight, let's begin with our first discussion question, what causes life to hurt?
author Also, we must be very careful that medical treatment doesn't become our god.
Karing I agree with that too ...
cwt so true
Faith That is true
author Oops, yes, let's begin with the first question.
Karing Life hurts when we have expectations that are not met ...
Karing We expect to have everything turn out storybook wonderful ... and life isn't like that.
cwt there are so many hurting people in this world, through abuse,disappointment in circumstances, death,
Faith And sometimes others have done things to hurt or disappoint us.
cwt it sure isn't,
author Exactly. When hopes are dashed. When we lose someone we love, even if that someone is a baby who is only hoped-for
Karing I know sometimes it is even letting go and grieving for the "boy" the "girl" one didn't get.
author Yes, it's so important to allow yourself to grieve.
cwt and the misunderstanding that goes along with it, also the feeling of guilt, did I do something wrong
Karing It is admitting that we are hurting and allowing ourselves to let go and grieve for that which is lost.
Faith That is important. That we admit the hurt.
cwt that is a great point karing, discovering that it is okay to grieve
Karing Whenever we are hurt because of loss we do blame ourselves, don't we?
cwt seems to be the first reaction
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Faith True. Sometimes we can blame others as well.
cwt hi ann
Karing hi ann
author Yes. And we think we have to hide it - that as Christians we need to be happy all the time
Faith Hi ann!
author Hi Ann, thanks for joining us!
cwt welcome to our session here with an author on Empty
cwt Arms
Karing We are discussing the grieving process of loss - infertility/ stillborn/miscarriages
author We're talking about how it's important to allow yourself to grieve.
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Karing If you get bumped .... try coming back in under a new name
author Hi again Ann! Hope you don't get bumped again.
cwt Emotional pain is harmful, how did you move beyond that Marlo, as our guest author, share what helped you to do this
ann hi
Faith We do need a long period of time usually to grieve.
ann howday
author Get beyond emotional pain by going through it. By coming to God with our tears and hurts. Weeping with him. Seeking the comfort, vision, and hope that only he can give.
ann ok
Karing We certainly have a thought that we can go around our pain, don't we?
cwt did you have a strong faith as a young woman?
ann wantyousaidme
Karing There really is no way to deal with loss except going through it.
author And others often tell us we should be over it.
ann wantyoudosaid
Faith It does hurt when others tell us how we should feel.
ann ok
Karing Or indicate that they understand ... when you know they don't.
cwt it hurts when others don't attempt to see how we feel
ann my
Karing Grieving is also about allowing ourselves to feel hurt when we are unexpectedly broadsided with pain.
ann youlongday
author I became a strong Christian in college, but infertility and miscarriage has really challenged my faith - forced me to deal with hard issues and seek God in deeper ways.
Karing Do you still find that happens to you Marlo?
ann ok
Karing Have you had several miscarriages?
ann ok
author Two.
ann yes
Karing I'm sorry about that
ann ok
author Just last week we found out the latest treatment didn't work. You'd think I'd be used to it, but it still hurt. I still had to spend a day boo-hooing.
ann yes
Karing What a long and painful road.
cwt so Marlo, your strong faith in God has helped you deal with life's hurts. How has God shown His peace to you? You have certainly been through tough times
Faith I am sorry.
author But it was good to cry and come to God with my pain. To just say, "This really hurts a lot, God."
ann ok
author God has reminded me of the rainbow - his promise that it won't rain forever. That he has a future for me, that he loves me.
ann yougoingshcool
Karing That is a great promise. It's so easy to forget
ann ok
author I've also learned that God wants me to love him independent of what he's given (or not given) me.
ann yes
Karing That is so true.
author And that's hard sometimes. But I'm learning to love Him for who he is, rather than what he gives.
Karing Isn't that the truth
cwt that is so great, God has brought you peace with your situation, what are some other keys to healing inner hurts?
ann imhowday
author Having others around you who understand. There will plenty of people who will say awful, unintentionally hurtful things, but you've got to have some people to talk to, pray with, and be honest with about your spiritual struggles and hurts.
ann said
Karing Understanding the motive can make a difference too.
ann yes
author I've also found it helpful to look through my old journals, to remember God's faithfulness in the past.
author And to read about God's faithfulness and love in the Bible. The OT is great for that.
Karing Many people have not gone through certain things or processed them properly and they are often more hurtful than helpful.
ann yes
cwt that is such a great point, to have a support group of believers that will pray for you and empathize
ann 48
author essential
cwt what have you said to the ones who hurt you unintentionally, or do you just remain silent?
ann me
ann yes
author Sometimes I say nothing. Sometimes I say something pointed, but kind.
Faith Often people could mean well but the words just come out wrong.
ann ok
author Yes. It's best to give them grace.
cwt that is interesting, because it could help them to know that what they said did hurt you and explain why in a loving way
Karing I find it is good to ask them "did you mean _______when you just said that?
ann my
cwt that is an excellent way to reword it
Faith It is wonderful that you can be so forgiving when people say hurtful things.
author I like that too
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Karing Hi doris
ann wantyoume
author Hi doris!
cwt hi doris
Faith Hi doris
ann hi
cwt welcome to our session here, we are talking about keys to healing inner hurts
doris hi. my name in here before was dburd
author We're talking about how people can sometimes say hurtful things to us in our pain.
Karing When you rephrase a hurtful statement ... often they indicate that they never intended it to sound that way.
ann ann
ann lod
Karing Did you have trouble getting in?
ann yes
author Often, people will say something starting with "at least" - never try to comfort someone with a sentence starting with at least!
Karing Where does one find comfort when life doesn't seem fair?
ann wantyoulivefor
Karing That is a great point ...
ann yes
doris i remember when my father passed away 3 years ago and i thought it wasn't fair. God brought us through though
ann me
Karing I think letting go of the fact that life isn't fair ... but that is so hard
ann youdoyougtome
author Sometimes, you just have to pound on God's chest and say I hurt! I don't understand!
Karing What a way to describe it.
author He can handle that - as long as we're turning toward him.
Faith That is true.
ann noi
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Karing Also understanding that though God allows hurt ... He is not the originator of it necessarily and that He does see a different picture than we see
doris tha's true. i felt that i didn't know what to do because i hurt so bad and i felt like He didn't hear me when i prayed
Karing Hi spud
cwt there are many times in life when life doesn't make sense then we have a choice to either get angry and take it in our own hands, or to totally turn to God and let Him work through us
Faith Hi Spud!
cwt hi spud
ann ok
author Hello Spud!
Spud Hi!
doris hi spud
cwt welcome to our session here on life's hurts
ann hi
cwt we have a guest author
author That's me - Empty Womb, Aching Heart, Hope and Help for Those Struggling with Infertility
ann yes
Karing How do you deal with so many people offering advice to fix things for you?
ann ok
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Karing I wonder if that will intensify once your book is published
author Ugh. Isn't that awful. I try to filter out most of it. Pay attention to those who know me well, who I can talk with freely.
Faith I like your attitude.
Karing You do have an amazing attitude
cwt what are some of the deep emotional scars that you have had to deal with living with your miscarriages and infertility problems Marlo?
Karing I'm sure that doesn't come naturally every day.
doris how do you cope with thses matters
author I have really struggled with does God really love me. The first thing that every new Christian learned, but it's still been hard to believe sometimes.
Karing That is such a basic foundation .... yet the very foundation of who we are in Christ.
Karing That must have felt very isolating.
Karing and painful.
author I'm working through that - clinging in faith to God's promise of love, to what I know of his character, even when circumstances don't seem to support his love.
cwt that is huge to deal with, did you ever receive counselling?
author Alas, no. I am too stubborn! :-)
doris how has your husband dealt with it?
Karing It seems though that you seek counsel from those around you.
cwt yes, we understand...so others who are struggling with this same issue, what would you recommend?
author Actually, and here's the kicker - both my husband and I have been pastors. And, yes, I've found some wonderful Godly women to talk with.
cwt that is wonderful, obviously God has put them in your path for a reason
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cwt hi shey
Shey hi
Karing Have you found the Spirit-filled or directed life a helpful concept in dealing with your pain as you struggle to give this over to God?
Karing Hi shey
author Christian counseling is great too. But if you can't do that, find people who won't give pat answers to hard questions.
cwt welcome to our session here on empty womb, aching heart...when life doesn't seem fair
cwt good advice!
cwt so in your opinion, how can we mourish our souls when we are filled with dispair?
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Karing Hi Lily
author Yes. I'm one of those white-knuckled types who have a hard time letting go. So God has had to work hard one me.
cwt sorry nourish I mean!
cwt hi lily
author Hi Lily!
cwt we have a guest author here discussing her struggle with infertility and miscarriages
author Lots of Bible study and meditation.
Lily THiype HERE
Lily opps............Hi
author AND, time doing fun, relaxing things.
cwt yes, Romans 12 talks about renewing of the mind, and to do that we need to keep in His word
author Sabbath - times of rest and enjoyment, times to remember the good things in life are so important.
Karing That is good too.
cwt but we also need to discover the power that God freely gives us through His Holy Spirit, we only have to accept it by faith
Karing Sometimes those times of rest do bring out deep hurts too.
cwt many women who love the Lord are still living defeated lives because they have not discovered the power of the Holy Spirit
Lily I believe that reflection is healthy
author I remember going to God with my clenched fists (holding on to my desire for a baby) and telling Him "this is the best I can, you'll have to take it from here."
Karing I find relying on the Holy Spirit to really help me through those painful times.
author Oops, best I can DO
Faith If we are willing to ask God and trust him then he will heal our hurt.
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Karing hi hope
author Hi Hope!
cwt hi hope
doris hi
Faith True healing does come from knowing God is in control.
hope hi everyone
Lily hi hope
cwt yes, that is good faith,
author We're talking about relying on God, trusting him, and allowing the Holy Spirit to heal us.
cwt absolutely...that is the key! We cannot do it on our own, but God certainly can do it through us and His comforting Holy Spirit
Spud This is so true, my husband and I struggled with infertility for 3 years but God blessed with a son!
Karing A lot of painful struggles
cwt that is so wonderful spud!
Lily We women find it hard to find satisfaction for all our needs in Christ ...
author Sometimes, too, I think we need to let go of the need to see our whole life's picture.
author Oh, that's great, Spud! Praise God!
Karing Lily ... do you want to expand? What do you mean?
Karing Our human nature is insatiable.... we look for many things to satisfy.
Faith That is true.
Karing That is why it is so very hard for us to give things over to God.
author Maybe that it's easy to think things - even something wonderful like a child - will be just what we need to make us happy. When only Jesus fulfills.
Lily As women we tend to want to fix things for everyone........like relationships etc....we get so caught up in helping others that we often become the centre of everyones lives
Faith But only when we seek the things of Christ will we be truly at peace.
Karing It's hard to believe that ... when we have a preconceived idea of what we need.
cwt that is so true, we often take our eyes off Jesus and look to other circumstances to fill our need, but this only leads to emptiness
Lily somehow in the midst of nuturing others we forget to allow Christ to nurture us
cwt good point Lily
Faith That is true. We do tend sometimes to make someone elses problem our own.
cwt Wjat can draw us back to contentment in life?
author I like to remember too that God promises us the abundant life - not only abundant in good gifts, but also in pain, perhaps that we may understand Him better, he who suffered for us.
Karing Letting go of our desires and ideas of what is best for us.
Faith We can find contentment and peace with God through a personal relationship with Jesus.
Karing It's easy to ask the question about why Christ allows us to have a longing for a child ... and then doesn't fill the void.
Lily when we rely on Christ for the care and protection of our loves ones then we are finding true satisfaction in Him....trusting Him not only for our needs but for the needs of others as well
author It has helped me a lot to remember that Jesus wept too. And that God himself lost a child. My grief can allow me to see him more clearly, if I let it.
cwt that is an interesting perspective Marlo, Jesus never promised us that life would be perfect, that life will be our eternal life. But instead He said in this world you will have trouble, but take heart I have overcome the world
cwt you have a great perspective!
Karing That is an interesting perspective.
author Amen!
Lily He wants to be our portion..........He wants to fill all the emptied areas of our lives
Karing That is so well put Lily
cwt certainly, He does Lily, we have to open them up to Him to come in
Lily even the empty womb
cwt Oswald Chambers terms it : abandonment of ourselves
Lily sometimes He allows circumstances that leave empty spots
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Karing Hi mary
author Hi Mary!
Faith Hi mary
Lily welcome Mary
Karing What are ways we can help others who struggle with loss of infancy?
Lily point them to Jesus
mary hello everone
Karing Is it better to address it? To ignore it?
mary What is the discussion on?
Karing Or does it depend who we are in relation to the person who is struggling?
Lily we are all called to be caregivers...........caregivers are often just good listeners
cwt the discussion is on Empty Arms when life doesn't seem fair
Faith That is a good question. It is hard to know what to do in this type of circumstance.
author Address it! Acknowledge their hurt. Let them know it's okay to cry, to doubt, to struggle.
cwt we have a guest author here tonight
Karing How do you deal with the simple question "how many children do you have"?
cwt so listening is the best thing, and praying for them
hope it is better to address it. When I had my 2 miscarriage I didn't want people to ignore it
Karing Often that is the starting point for the conversation.
author Amen, Lily. Be a person they can talk openly too. Someone who doesn't tell them they're wrong, but just helps them to talk things through.
Lily Not everyone deals with grief in the same way
mary true
cwt and to give them time...
Karing It is interesting that most people walk around the pain and don't talk about it.
author And be understanding about expecting them to attend baby showers, do the nursery at church, etc.
Lily denial is a natural process of grief for some
mary i agree
author I've appreciated it when people have said things like, "How hard. I'll be praying for you" then the next time I see them they ask how I'm doing and they really mean it.
Lily we are to come alongside that hurting.........sometimes that means standing by silently
mary We have to meet people where they are.
hope that really helped me too Marlo
Karing We can never offend when we offer to pray for people.
mary excuse me, can i join in?
Karing definitely
author The worst is to tell them they shouldn't feel however they're feeling. "You shouldn't be sad because..."
Lily there is nothing more harmful than words spoke inappropriately
Karing absolutely Marlo!
hope that's so true Marlo
Karing There is nothing wrong with saying "I'm sorry, I don't know what to say"
Karing In fact, those can be more comforting than anything we attempt to say.
author Good point, Karing
cwt Marlo,this conversation is great, but you do have a new website out, did you want to let the girls know the address here? And did you want to say any other comments about your book that is just released?
Lily God wants us to pour into others the grace He has poured into us
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cwt hi autumnsky
author www.marloschalesky.com - has all three of my books: Empty Womb, Aching Heart (on infertility) and two historical novels (great stuff). Empty Womb is also a great gift to give to a friend who's struggling because it doesn't tell you how to feel, instead it gives the reader others surrounding them, others who are walking and have walked the same path.
myautumnsky Wow, I've never seen so many people here. What's the topic?
Karing hi myautmnsky
myautumnsky Hi everyone.
Lily God has been a silent wittness to my pain.......but I knew through His word that He would never leave me nor forsake me
Karing Empty Arms: When LifeDoesn't seem fair
myautumnsky Did I walk into the middle of something here?
Karing About Infertility/Sillborn/misscarriages
author We're talking about life's hurts, and finding a deeper relationship with God through them.
cwt that is so great lily, and so true He never leaves us nor forsakes us!
mary amen to that,and that is where compassion plays His role.
myautumnsky That's a human perception.
cwt well we need to close our scheduled session with prayer, but please remainin the room to continue the discussion, it is a great topic. let's pray together and thank the Lord for these great thoughts
mary You girls are really great the way you all are respecting one another.
myautumnsky It's a good thing God is passionate and caring!!:)
Karing myautumnsky, we have a guest author with us who has written a book about infertility.
Lily even in lifes disappointments we can find hope knowing that God has a purpose and that all things work for good
author Thanks. And please check out my website: www.marloschalesky.com. My book's called "Empty Womb, Aching Heart"
cwt Lord we thank you so much for bringing Marlo to our site here tonight and for your words spoken through her tha tencouraged us. we pray for Marlo that you would continue to give her peace, help her to minister to others as she receives comfort from you, may you bless her with your abundance! amen
Karing Lord I pray for the thousands of women who are hurting with aching hearts. I pray that you would bring healing and wholeness. Quench their thirst for a child to love. Thank you Lord that you care.
cwt Marlo did you want to stay in the room for questions? Feel free to move on if you need to
Karing Do any of you have questions on this topic?
author Sure. I can stay a few more minutes.
myautumnsky Sorry I missed out.
cwt great and again thank you so very much for joining us!
Karing We briefly touched on the ethics of intervention? Anyone have questions on that?
Spud have you heard of stepping stones ministry?
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cwt feel free girls to ask questions...
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Faith Yes, where is the line drawn on intervention?
cwt hi robyn we are just ending a session with an author on empty arms: when life doesn';t make sense
author Stepping Stones is great. Also, Ladies in Waiting internet support group and www.hannah.org
cwt any questions for the author?
Karing Our author is open to questions on infertility
Karing Are you involved in this internet support group?
myautumnsky I'm fertile, so no questions here.
mary I think of sara
author Line = where others are hurt, i.e., unborn babies are destroyed.
Spud Are these good sites for those who don't Jesus christ?
mary thinking of
Karing It has been very helpful to hear your perspective of how to approach people who are struggling with this.
author Resolve is a secular organization with lots of infertility info.
Faith Thank you. I agree with that.
author I also have a whole list of resource sites and groups at the back of my book.
Spud I have a non christian friend who is struggling with infertility, what would be a good site for her to visit?
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myautumnsky brb, gotta take dinner out of the oven
author All of them!
Spud Thanks
author I think the one is resolve.org (might be .com), but the hannah.org site is great too, even if it's Christian
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cwt welcome
Karing Hi there
IAMBLESSED070870 Type HEREHELLO
mary hello bless
cwt any more questions for our author?
IAMBLESSED070870 this is very new to me
author Just type in your questions and click send!
IAMBLESSED070870 i am came in very late i see
author That's okay.
IAMBLESSED070870 so i really do not have a question except what is the topic
Faith This has been an interesting discussion. Thank you author.
Faith It is wonderful of you to share with everyone.
author I've enjoyed "talking" with you all.
cwt thanks again Marlo for spending time with us, we really enjoyed the topic and all that you shared with us, your faith is so obviously strong! May the Lord bless you!
Karing Thank you so much for sharing your pain with us.
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