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Subject: The Freedom of Forgiveness
Date: July 16, 2001
Related article: Turning The Other Cheek
Fairness definitely is not a prerequisite for forgiveness. It is so difficult to comprehend how we can be deeply wronged and left with the aftermath which so often turns into the bondage of bitterness and unforgiveness. Please join us as we discuss how to discover the freedom of forgiveness.
- What are the causes of harboring unforgiveness?
- What can the consequences of unforgiveness be?
- What does " forgiveness " mean to you?
- Can we help others to forgive?
- What kind of freedom does forgiveness give?
cwt
Hi Everyone!
Faith
Is the discussion supposed to be starting or is it on in one hour?
cwt
Our chat room discussion is starting now...Thursday evenings it starts an hour later
Faith
I had something showing 9:00 Mountain time and this schedule shows 8:00 Mountain.
Faith
The other two are not really saying a thing so it is just you and I.
cwt
Maybe they are having a private chat....
Faith
That could be the case.
cwt
Let's open in prayer and get started anyway....I am sure we will soon be joined by
others
............................ Shey joined.............
Faith
Hi Shey!
cwt
Hi There Shey!
Shey
Hi
cwt
We were just going to get started with prayer
Shey
great
............................ smyl left.............
cwt
Father, thank you for the opportunity that we have to get together in this tonight.
Guide our discussion and teach us more about You and the freedom of forgiveness.
Amen
Faith
Amen
cwt
Tonight's subject is the freedom of forgiveness, so I thought maybe we could get
started by talking about some of the causes of harboring unforgiveness...
cwt
What do you think they are?
Faith
Past wrongs.
Faith
Someone in the past has done something to hurt us.
cwt
unresolved conflict
Shey
maybe we like to hold it over someone else
cwt
I think that we women are really prone to that Shey
Shey
or we like to wallow in our own pity
Faith
Those are all very true.
cwt
Sometime I think that we don't want to forgive because we feel like we deserve to be
hurt
Faith
So we feel like we must have done something to cause someone elses behavior.
cwt
Perhaps in that way we feel like we have control over that person that has caused us
the pain
Faith
I agree.
cwt
Bitterness is another reason we harbor unforgiveness...as long as I nurse the hurt and
allow myself to become bitter, there is no room for forgiveness
Shey
I think too that when we don't forgive it also gives us a reason to pull away from
something or someone that maybe we wanted to get away form anyways
Faith
That is true. Bitterness does bind us to the past.
............................ Rainbow joined.............
cwt
Welcome Rainbow
............................ YjabezG left.............
Shey
Hi Rainbow
Faith
Hi Rainbow!
cwt
we are just talking about some of the causes of harboring unforgiveness
Rainbow
Hi everyone
Rainbow
Good subject
Faith
Bitterness makes us carry excess baggage where ever we go and we don't even
realize we are carrying it sometimes.
cwt
I have never thought about your point before Shey..that perhaps we don't forgive
because that gives us a reason to pull away
cwt
so true Faith!
cwt
Bitterness is definitely both a cause and a consequence of unforgiveness!
Shey
I was thinking maybe in a church group or commitee where you wanted out
cwt
I hear you!
Faith
That is a good point Shey.
Rainbow
I have a very hard time forgiving, but I realize it;s a must!
cwt
I don't think it is limited to that, I have seen families destroyed by that very thing
cwt
You know Rainbow, I think most of us have a hard time forgiving others
Shey
I do too Rainbow. Especially when my kids only say sorry to get away form the
concequences
cwt
That is one of the reason that we should teach our kids to say more that just, "I am
sorry"
Faith
That is true. When people don't feel like forgiving it can cause family rifts. People
make it a habit of saying unkind things to others.
cwt
For example, Mommy, will you forgive me for hitting my brother?
Rainbow
The problem is how much do you forgive, does it have to be 100 percent?
cwt
You can say that again Faith...my extended family is a great example of the pain
unforgivness can cause
cwt
How do you mean Rainbow....
Rainbow
When it is something very very serious, it's so hard.
Faith
We need to be free of unforgiveness ourselves before we can teach our children to
forgive.
cwt
True
Faith
It is hard Rainbow. But we do need to choose to forgive.
cwt
What does "forgiveness" mean to you?
Rainbow
When you forgive you are the one that benefits but.....................
Faith
Trusting that God is the God of justice. GOd knows the truth and I choose not to
hold that person to myself with unforgiveness.
Faith
It is not saying what the other person did was okay because it wasn't.
cwt
Good point Faith
Faith
One day everyone will answer to God. Let him be the judge of what went on.
cwt
Also Psalm 37 comes to my mind...Commit your way to the Lord, Trust in Him, and
He will bring it to pass. Rest in the Lord.
cwt
So I need to let go of the hurt or pain that other person has caused me... and then
commit that person and the entire situation to the Lord
Rainbow
No matter what?
cwt
I don't think it necessarily means we forget all about it...only God can truly forgive
and totally forget
cwt
But yes, I think we need to forgive, no matter what
Faith
We don't forget but we choose to forgive even if it is over and over again.
cwt
And sometimes, the most difficult things to forgive are those that do happen over and
over again
cwt
Have any of you gals read the novel, 'Redeeming Love' by Francine Rivers?
Faith
No. What does the novel speak about?
Shey
I think so but refresh me
Rainbow
I heard of it.
cwt
She bases it on the biblical story of Hosea, and his unfaithful wife Gomer....reading it
taught me in a new way what it meant to forgive over and over again.
Shey
I did. That was an awesome book
cwt
It is one of my all time favorites..
Faith
I will have to look for it.
cwt
but it also showed me so plainly that I have a lot to learn about forgiveness
Shey
It also teaches alot about patience too
cwt
I am more likely to say 'I will forgive you, if....
cwt
You are so right Shey
Faith
It certainly sounds like a book I could learn from.
cwt
Look for it, your church library might even have it...if it has a library that is
Faith
Yes, there is a library. I will have to check into it.
cwt
what can the consequences of unforgiveness be?
cwt
besides the obvious which is broken relationships
Shey
It makes you very miserable
Rainbow
Did you ever try to build a relationship back up that was destroyed?
cwt
that's for sure! :(
Faith
Stuck in a rut. Unforgiveness puts a barrier between us and God.
cwt
I haad to do that within my family....it was very hard
Rainbow
Even though you forgive, things are different.
cwt
yes, you are right....it takes time to heal the pain
Rainbow
But at least there isn't fighting.
Shey
things will probably never be the same. We are human and don't forget the past and
our trust is hurt
cwt
and some times the person that you are forgiving doesn't think they have done
anything wrong
Faith
People do have to re-earn our trust.
cwt
It really depends on the situation
Faith
That is true. Sometimes the person doesn't see where they have caused the hurt.
Rainbow
What about forgiving when the person continues to deeply hurt you.
cwt
I have a very good friend...we had some real issues, but we valued our friendship, so
we worked through the muck, forgave one another, and started building our
relationship...now it is even better than before
cwt
It is much harder in that case Rainbow....
Faith
That is awesome!
Faith
I mean in your case cwt.
cwt
I understood! :)
cwt
When that person continues to hurt you, or doesn't think they have done anything
wrong, it is much more difficult
cwt
But that doesn't mean that we shouldn't forgive
Shey
Do you think there comes a time when maybe you should cut off such a relationship if
it is so hurtful?
Faith
Unfortunately, sometimes people do not always come to the realization they have
caused any hurt. They may never acknowledge that anything wrong was done.
cwt
Sometimes that may be the only way to resolve it Shey....but that doesn't mean that
we shouldn't still forgive that person
Rainbow
They KNOW they are doing wrong but continue , should I pity that person?
cwt
sounds like you need to pray for that person!
Faith
Sometimes the more we pray about a person who has wronged us, the softer we will
become towards that person.
Rainbow
And treat it as a physchological problem?
cwt
What do you mean Rainbow?
cwt
Personally, I had to forgive someone who didn't think that anything wrong had
happened...totally unwilling to accept responsibility for what had happened
cwt
That was hard....Only God at work in my life could bring that about
Rainbow
When someone keeps hurting you should you try and understand it as an emotional
problem?
cwt
I understand...
cwt
Sometimes it is easier to deal with if we see it as an emotional problem...then it isn't
directed at us personally
Faith
Are you in any kind of danger Rainbow?
Rainbow
nO
cwt
that's good
Faith
I am glad.
cwt
Earlier Faith, you mentioned that unforgiveness can act as a barrier between us and
God
Rainbow
jUST GOING THROUGH ALOT OF HURT THAT IS HARD TO ACCEPT.
cwt
that is hard
Faith
That is true. Jesus commands us to forgive others.
Shey
Just as He forgives us we need to forgive others
cwt
Yes, and I need to continually give over control of my life to God...as I allow Him to
control my life, I allow His Spirit to fill me, to control more and more of my life....then
and only then can I forgive others
............................ Bernice joined.............
Rainbow
He forgave those who crucified Him. You can't hurt much more than that.
cwt
Welcome Bernice
Shey
hi Bernice
Bernice
hi all
Rainbow
Hi Bernice
Faith
Hi Bernice.
cwt
We are just talking about forgivness....sometimes it is very hard when the person
continues to cause us pain...but we need to forgvie
cwt
That's when we need to confess that unforgiveness to God, and allow His Spirit to
take control in a new way and forgive that person thru us
............................ Paulie joined.............
cwt
Welcome Paulie
Faith
Hi Paulie!
Rainbow
Hi Paulie
Paulie
Type HEREHi everyone
cwt
Rainbow, can we pray for you?
Faith
That is the truth!
Rainbow
That was I would love that.
cwt
Father, we lift Rainbow before you tonight.
cwt
we don't know all the details of her situation, but we do know that You love her and
want to work in her life.
cwt
May she allow Your Spirit to have control of her life, and continue to forgive even
when it is hard.
Rainbow
Thank You for your concern .
Faith
Lord, we pray that You would enable Rainbow to be freely forgiving towards others
who have hurt her. Please guide her and help heal her heart. In Jesus' name, Amen.
cwt
Show her in a special way tonight that You love her, and You care about her, and so
she can rest in You. Amen
Bernice
amen
Paulie
Need Godly advice....
cwt
Rainbow, I just want you to know that I have been in a very difficult situation and I
understand some of your struggle....
Rainbow
I have come a long way since I have been hurt, so I know He is working in my life.
cwt
It isn't easy
cwt
what kind of advice Paulie?
Bernice
what's up Paulie?
Rainbow
But it takes a process
Paulie
i am on the praise team at my church
cwt
that's true rainbow....and it takes time, lots of time!
............................ SGP joined.............
cwt
Time is a great healer as we allow God to work in our lives
Faith
Welcome SGP!
Paulie
and i find it difficult to sing when i get up infront of people. it is like something is
coming up against me
cwt
welcome SGP
Bernice
have you always had that difficulty -- or is it just recent?
Paulie
on and off...
Rainbow
Just picture Jesus there and that you are singing to him.
Faith
It is hard to get up in front of people. But something that has helped me is to
remember God is with me. He will never leave you and he will always give you the
strength necessary to complete a task.
cwt
That was my thought too
Paulie
i feel like there is a block. Sometimes I feel it is me and maybe I wasn't cut out for it.
Bernice
howlong you've been on team?
Paulie
for 6 months
Faith
That is the Enemy making you doubt your abilities.
SGP
Type HEREToday I went to bible study and the discussion is Living in Victory
w/JESUS.
Bernice
ok. I've been ona worship team for a couple of years...think you probably have a
case of nerves, but if you try to focus on the Lord it will be easier...
cwt
Maybe it will get better with time...close your eyes and sing to the LOrd! And don't
give the enemy any foothold in your life
Paulie
yes.. I guess maybe it has something to do with hurts from the past church that I
attended.
Bernice
sometimes we try to please everyone ind oing a good job leading worship...if you've
been criticized before it will be more difficult
Faith
That does sound like a good Bible study SGP.
cwt
That's where you need to bring those hurts before the Lord, and let go...forgive and
move on
Rainbow
Visualize your favoite picture of the Lord and sing for Him.
SGP
Thank You Faith for your response.
Paulie
i forgive... but it difficult when you have been injured in an area.
Faith
Sometimes when we don't forgive we still think we are moving ahead in life. But we
are not moving ahead and won't be until we forgive.
Bernice
ask the Lord to show you if there was anything to what was said/done, if there was
accept it and grow...if not then forgiveness has to take place...
cwt
Good point bernice...take the kernel of truth and move on...
Paulie
i was at this church for 2 weeks and another pastor rebuked the entire praise team for
not singing what he felt was fit.
Bernice
It is very difficult. Most of us have been hurt in some realm or another when it comes
to criticism....worship is very difficult in that way...
cwt
wow, that would hurt
Paulie
i stay at that church for 2 years and now I have been at this one for 6 months
Bernice
I hear you. That would be hard. Everyone has to try to have the mind of the Lord in
worship - including the pastor
............................ SGP left.............
Paulie
i know that i need help and i ask that you all pray for me...
Bernice
be sure you try to resolve the issue with the other pastor if you can. That may serve
as a block if there is anything that needs to be forgiven. I've found in worship, blocks
happen easier than anywhere else...
Rainbow
I guess Pastors are under alot of stress, try and understand that.
cwt
I don't want to cut off your discussion ladies...but our hour is up and unfortunately I
am going to have to close...my son needs the computer and internet to finish a
project(he is finishing his last week of classes for his Bachelor of Education Degree)
But let's pray for Paulie first
Paulie
i did talk to him before i left but it didn't help. the pastor came back and did it again
repeatedly.
Bernice
You have to leave it to the Lord then, if you have done your part. God will see to it
from there...
Bernice
sorry cwt...
cwt
Father, we bring Paulie before You. Show her if there is anything else that she needs
to do. If not, give her a forgiving spirit, and help her to move on and worship You
with great freedom
cwt
Amen
Bernice
amen
Rainbow
My prayers are with you.
cwt
Not to worry Bernice
cwt
I just promised him that I would get off in an hour...feel free to carry on though
Ladies...
Bernice
I know how difficult worship leading can be...sometimes very hard...but also great
reward...
Faith
Just on a final note, forgiveness does bring healing and hope. Jesus is the truth that
sets us free from unforgiveness. He gives us the freedom to follow God.
cwt
Thanks for that reminder Faith!
Paulie
Is being hurt and unforgiveness the same?
cwt
Father, remind us each of that truth this week. Forgiveness truly does bring healing
and hope, and You are the one that allows that to happen in our lives. Work in our
lives as we go. Amen
Faith
Amen
Bernice
hm. good question. Hurt can lead to unforgiveness...because we were hurt...
Faith
The two could go hand in hand.
cwt
It really depends on what we do with that hurt
Bernice
good point. If you harbour the hurt then it leads to unforgiveness, even bitterness...
Faith
The hurt can cause the anger and bitterness.
Rainbow
I guess the sooner you forgive, the better.
cwt
If we give it to the Lord and don't allow any bitterness or resentment to take route,
then it doesn't necessarily lead to unforgiveness
Paulie
thank you.
Bernice
what's that story in the Bible where the guy was critcized and laid the letter before the
Lord?
Faith
Something that has helped me forgive is to remember that I am not letting the other
person off the hook. It is not okay that they did this but I am choosing to forgive to
free myself of the bitterness and anger.
Bernice
I often think of that story when I'm hurt by someone...
Faith
It helps to remember that we need to forgive again and again, if necessary.
Paulie
i constantly ask God to search my heart. I don't want to hold on to unforgiveness. I
just want to please God.
cwt
Just carry on without me gals...gotta turn over the computer.....glad you could all join
us! Good Night!
Bernice
night! Take care!
Faith
Thank you for the session and God Bless!
Paulie
goodnight cwt.. thanks
Rainbow
goodnight and thanks for your prayers
Bernice
God does know your heart...always does. it is a good thing eh?
Bernice
night rainbow...God bless
Faith
Thank you for coming Rainbow. Join us again.
Paulie
yes..
Rainbow
I will.
Bernice
have you talked about things with your worship leader?
cwt
Come again everyone! Bye!
............................ cwt left.............
Shey
good night ladies. Thanks for letting me listen.
Paulie
goodnight...god bless you.
Faith
Goodnight Shey, God Bless!
Bernice
nite shey...
............................ Rainbow left.............
............................ Shey left.............
Paulie
we are a small congregation and yes I have and she told me not to give up
Bernice
Paulie, maybe see if your worship team can attend a worship seminar sometime.
There is some good training that is available that would assist both the team and the
pastors
Faith
I hate to run but I need to pick my son up somewhere. My thoughts and prayers will
be with you Paulie.
Paulie
thank you faith and God bless you
Bernice
It isn't musical training but more how to lead worship, build a team,
communicate..stuff like that.
Faith
Goodnight.
............................ Faith left.............
Bernice
Bye faith
Paulie
Yes that would be nice bernice. Do you know of one?
Bernice
Check some larger churches in your area. They usually offer some training. There are
magazines you can get too. Very helpful
Paulie
I will do that.. I need all the help I can get. Sometimes I get discouraged, but I know
that God did call me to do praise and worship
Bernice
In Canada, we usually have a big one in Vancouver, B.C. and one in the east. They
are just great with all kinds of training.
Paulie
that would be nice to attend one of those. It will be very helpful
Bernice
some of your trouble probably has to do with expectations of the pastor regarding
worship and even communication between the pastor and the team.
Paulie
you know, i was just thinking about that. I was talking with another sister and there is
a
Paulie
communication problem with us all
Bernice
You could even get one of the larger worship teams to give you some advice or things
they have learned about worship. Team work is essential for the Spirit to flow.
Conflict can make it hard...
Bernice
Oh, have I been there!
Paulie
Yes we were just talking about being on one accord and in unity.
Paulie
And we are not on one accord
Bernice
Do you have regular meetings...to plan worship, or do you just show up on Sunday
am?
Paulie
I find it hard sometimes to talk to people, that is another one of my struggles.
Bernice
I think Satan does have a special plan to attack worship...
Paulie
we have bible studies once a week and sunday services
Bernice
that's good. When you have been hurt, it is very hard to open up again.
Paulie
only once do we do praise and that is sunday.
Paulie
Yes Satan is at his work in taring down our praise team
Paulie
I mean trying to
Bernice
There is a worship magazine out that is reallly good. Think it is just called "Worship".
We used to pass it around the team. Some really good pointers in there...and a
non-confrontive way to get points across.
Paulie
that would be good to read
Bernice
Has your worship leader set out a "manual" of expectations for the team?
Paulie
no....
Paulie
its just when we go up, it feels as though no one is getting with us.
Paulie
do you know what I mean?
Bernice
I would suggest that the pastor and the worship team leader get together and hash out
what is expected on both fronts. Worship is essential and team work on all fronts is
required...
Bernice
the audience isn't with you?
Paulie
Yes... I agree and i will bring it to his attention at the next meeting.
Bernice
what kind of church do you go to?
Paulie
well to be honest, it is only about 6 of us in attendance. We are just getting started
and it seem like the
Paulie
small crowds should be on fire for the Lord, but it is not the case at all times.
Bernice
6 people in the church or on the team...?
Paulie
6 people at the church not counting the kids
Bernice
so how manyon the team then?
Paulie
2 and that is myself and my sister which is the co-pastor.
Bernice
and the worship leader?
Paulie
one has not been appointed as of yet. Organization is not established.
Paulie
We need much help
Bernice
hm.. Interesting. what denominational background?
Paulie
non....
Bernice
yeah...but you all came from somewhere?
Paulie
we all mostly came from a penacostal background.
Bernice
What made you start a church plant?
Paulie
i don't know.... just wanted to go somewhere, where the word was being taught... I
feel like I haven't found my place yet.
Bernice
It is hard to find a home. I would think just logistically that it would be better to just
have the pastor leader worship....
Bernice
just an outside call here...dont' know the situation...
Bernice
but if you have 3 people in volved in leadership (worship & pastor) and 3 people in
audience...
Paulie
well she does in most cases. I get a song in now and then which doesn't bother me.
Bernice
just work on communication. Will probably solve some issues. Have you heard of the
book "The purpose Driven church?"
Paulie
some familiar....
Paulie
i mean sound..
Bernice
I don't agree with it 100% but sure gives some solid guidelines for starting a church.
sounds like you all needs to do some good talkign and planning as to why you exist...
Bernice
We attended a church plant for two years. Very neat experience.
Paulie
do you still attend there?
Bernice
no because we moved out of province. will probably look for another young chuch so
we can help...
Paulie
yes I agree with working with the communication.. and I will look for that book in the
bible store.
Bernice
Here is a web site for you to check out. I know the fellow that owns it. It is called
Praise charts. He whould have links from there that help with worship too. He has
been a worship leader for a long time...
Bernice
He should anyway.
Paulie
okay
Bernice
You are probably all in learning mode, so read what you can. will be a big help to
build a church with strong roots...
Paulie
that is what we need... And most of all... Love
Paulie
most of the time, things are not done in the spirit of love
Bernice
I've got to run. will pray for you. worship can be diffciult, but so worth working
through the issues.
Bernice
Love is sso important in most of life...really all of life..
Paulie
thank you so much for your advice and God bless you
Bernice
such as it is, you are welcome. God bless.
Paulie
Goodnight
Bernice
not much to offer...just know the challenge a little.
Bernice
night.
Paulie
I will take it to heart... I appreciate
Paulie
Goodnight
Bernice
God bless. Keep your ch
